NetNews Offline 2/NetNews Offline Volume 2.iso/news/comp/sys/amiga/misc-part1/9178

Text File | 1996-08-05 | 11.9 KB | 292 lines

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From: [e-mail] (G. Baldwin)
Subject: Re: New Press Release!
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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 01:35:54 GMT

Michael van Elst ([e-mail]) wrote:
: [e-mail] (Reg Martin) writes:

: >Hate to break this to you Michael, but there's more to computing than
: >word processors.

: Sure it is. But if you need a Pentium to do word processing then something
: is wrong, no ?

Word Processing 1982 - 80x25 character text mode based editor.  Had a few
extras such as a spell-checker.  You dumped this to you 9-pin dot matrix
printer connected to your parallel port.

Word Processing 1996 - 800x600 (or higher) screens using non-proportioanl
outline (Compugraphic, Postscript, ect...) fonts, high resolution images
(BMP, IFF, TIFF, JPEG, ect..) or high resolution drawings (Adobe
Illistrator or Macromedia Freehand drawings)...  its just so much more
than just text now days.

: >Once again Michael, you're misquoting me...  I did NOT name "Linux or
: >NetBSD", I named "any software which runs under Linux or NetBSD".

: That's about the same. Noone would buy an Amiga for Linux or NetBSD
: nor would anyone buy an Amiga for "any software which runs under Linux
: or NetBSD".

But people who are getting an Amiga may want to tru it out.  If they
don't have an MMU then that oppertunity is denied to them.


: >but now that I have an Amiga, I WOULD like to be able to run it.

: I bet that you ask for a few hundred megs extra disk space and a few megabytes
: extra RAM too, just in case you want to install NetBSD or Linux.

4MB of RAM is $60

An 850MB SCSI/IDE hard drive is $235/$190 (as of Dec 95)

Thats something that I (who makes under $7/hour) can pay for by working
just an extra 2 days.  Not very hard to do in a 365 day period.

: >I'm getting really pissed off by Amiga users saying "Not everybody needs
: >this" and "Not everybody needs that".

: It is the truth. Not everybody needs big hard drives, not everybody needs
: 060s, not everybody needs to run UNIX, not everybody is developing software.

Not everybody needs anything more than a 68000/7, yet we still moved up
to an 020/14.  Why?

: >of people be?  This is phenomenal...  A computer should be accomodating
: >to as many people as possible.

: That's why you can buy various models and expand them. Why should everbody
: buy something that only some users need ?

I do not call 2 models (A1200 or A4000T) much in the way in variety.
Even if they want to get anything more than an 020, the cost of doing so
is much higher than if the machine came with the 030 in the first place.
Same rule applies to an 040/060 as well.

: >An MMU is going to come in handy for
: >a hefty percentage of users, and it's a trivial thing to add.

: It costs. And that's why it is not _trivial to add_.

The cost between an 030/25 and an EC030/25 is next to nothing.  The only
reason the EC030/40 is so cheap (compared to an 030/50) is more than
because it has an MMU.

: >to yourself -- Hmm... You know, if every Amiga came standard with an
: >MMU, this crash might not have happend.

: Which is illogical. Not even commercial developers (that don't have problems
: to buy machines with MMUs) write software without enforcer hits.

: And most software that crashes on my Amiga comes from c00l c0d3rz anyway.
: Do you expect that an MMU would help them ?

<00L c0D3e2 are the only people left because they are the only people who
are willing to spend week after week fine tuning software, finding new
ways to bash and bang the hardware, and other misc and obnoxius ways of
bypassing the OS.  Most commerical companies have seen the Amiga for all
its worth and have moved on.  In any event, these last people could care
less about OS rules.  That why stuff crashes so much.


: >: It's impossible not only because of the missing CPU. You want a faster CPU,
: >: more memory and much more disk space.

: >You don't need a faster CPU, although it certainly is better.  Memory and
: >disk space are a helluva lot more simple to add than a new CPU.

: Ah, then tell me how do you add memory to an A1200 ? I have seen _one_ memory-only
: expansion and it isn't sold anymore. I have seen many CPU+memory expansions which
: are only marginally more expensive (due to volume).

I've actually seen about 4, but that does not matter.  The A1200 was a
shitty computer anyways.  It comes to show you that taking the cheap way
out is gonna come back and haunt you latter.


: >In North America 1200s were never available without hard drives (at least
: >I don't think they were -- I know that my local shop didn't have any
: >without hard drives.  I think there was an option of a 40Meg and an 80Meg).

: Which isn't even enough to install Linux or NetBSD.

Again, this is due to the fact that Commodore was just cheap.  When the
A1200 was being sold with 40/80/120MB 2.5" hard disks, I saw notebooks
with 700MB hard drives and sub-notebooks with 400MB hard drives.  Just
another example of how Commodore was "too cheap".

<Snip....>

: >the MMU is a mistake IMO.  Actually, only offering one processor is
: >the real mistake...

: It reduces cost. If you want a different processor you have to wait for
: an accelerator. Most people will wait for a PPC card anyway.

And during that time that they wait they have to deal with a slow and
outdated CPU.  I think many will just wait it out for the PPC machines.
This new "walker" will have been just a waste of time/money/effort.

<Snip...>

: >requires memory", what I meant was "ANY OS friendly program which is
: >not time critical and requires memory".

: Most of these programs do not need an MMU or virtual memory. In fact,
: with virtual memory they are hardly usuable.

I own ADPro, PhotogenicsLite, and Lightwave.  I have used them on an 18MB
machine before.  I too have run out of memory with them.  I also know for
a FACT that people with low end machines run out of memory from time to
time doing a job that they normally couldn't do.  ITS A FACT OF LIFE.
GET USED TO IT.

Doing a task slowly (with VM) is better than doing no task at all.

: >Sure, if you've got an expansion board with an extra 32Megs or so...

: I have 16 Megs and most of the time I barely use 6 Megs.

So?  Doesn't mean that a lot of other people DO use a lot more than 6MB
of memory..  I know many people whose systems take 3-4MB of memory just to
boot up.  (thses are AmigaOS machines too).

: >That would be rather pointless don't you think?  Christian and Jim are
: >both perfectly aware that the graphics updates are slow without a
: >graphics card.

: They are perfectly aware that people that use ShapeShifter regularly have
: a graphics card.

Perhaps these people can't get a grfx card.  After all, there are no
ZorroII/III slots in an A500/A600/A1000/A1200.  But perhaps they so want
to use SS for some reason or another.  Maybe they want to use a good
newsreader, or a good MIDI program.  Could it be that the have a Newton
and want to download software to it?  Perhaps they <gasp> want to run Word?

All of that software would run fine on a 4-bit screen.  Such a screen
could be quite usable with SS if the MMU was helping with the refresh.

"Oh, you can't have fast updates with a 4-bit screen.  We don't feel like
writing our driver in pure ASM so you have to do without.  Tough luck".


: >IMO it's a stupid thing to write a software author and say "Hey --
: >why don't you make it faster?"

: I wouldn't ask that.

You just did.

: >Let's hear it for Mr. Short-term Memory...

: >Virtual Memory,

: ... usuable only for a few programs that need a faster CPU anyway.

Usable with just about any renderer, image processor, archiver, paint
program, or image viewer, even an 030/16.  I should know, I do it.

: >Unix,

: ... not necessary for new buyers.

But something that might interest them latter.

: >Enforcer.

: ... only for developers. Why should everbody pay for them ?

There more to having an MMU than just running Enforcer.

: So, no, you didn't name a valid reason for having an MMU in the base machine.

He named several valid reasons.  Virtual memory is something we can all
use.  And what about AmigaOS 4.x?  What if it comes with VM and Memory
Protection standard?  All of those people w/o MMUs will be forced to get
one if they ever want to upgrade.  Its better to have them in the base
machines now so the transition will be easy.

: >a big fat 50Mhz 060.  My computer is too slow, because just about
: >everything I do on it could be faster,

: Ah. With a faster CPU you could type faster ? This is surely true of Word for
: Windows, but on the Amiga ?

I would actually be able to type instead of waiting for my new font to
appear or for my image to be loaded into the document.

<Snip buncho-bickering...>

: >It's not a fact because I claimed it is.  It's a fact because there
: >ARE 1200 owners out there running ShapeShifter.  Go ahead and ask
: >around...

: Oh sure. I haven't seen _one_. But I have seen many that use A1200s with
: a Blizzard accelerator. After all there isn't much you can do with a base
: A1200 and ShapeShifter. Half of all the Mac software couldn't be loaded into
: 2 Megs of RAM.

Perhaps thats because you live in Europe.  Americans seem to expand their
systems more than Europeans do.  (Maybe its because Europeans have 50%
tax rates and Americans only have 20%-30%, or its because Americans like
"Big Fast Things", or something else, who knows.  I am not a socialology
major.).  Furthermore, the Mac has a larger presence over here so Mac
software is easier to get, and thus makes it a much more appealing option
to take to run new apps.

<Snip more stuff that looks like it came from 1st graders>

: >: That's your problem. If AT _buys_ 040s or 060s at some price that's not
: >: what the end user has to pay for it and you wouldn't be satisfied with
: >: just the CPU. They and especially the dealers have to make money and
: >: any price difference for the parts gives at least thrice that for the
: >: end-user.

: >Yeah, but so what?  3 x $30 != $300.

: Fortunately I know that the price difference between a full 68030RC33 and
: a 68EC030FE40 is about $100.

Actually, thats not the price difference between an EC030/40 and a 030/33
in bulk rates.  Thats closer to what an 030/50 is like.  Anyways, I can
get a LC040/25 or LC040/33 for less than a 030/50.  I may have to pay
more for an 040 memory subsystem, but the machine will also be at least
2-5x faster, so the small extra monitary output would be worth it. (oh,
and it comes with an MMU too...  <grin>)

: >: BTW, a 060 does come close to $300 just for the chip.

: >Exactly.  Thank you for telling yourself that you're wrong, it saves
: >me the hassle of doing it again.

: Ask Motorola for prices. The 060 is about $230. Not exactly $300 but then you
: can't expect the end-user to see just this price difference. And just a 060
: wouldn't do any good, you also need some fast memory for it.

Makes little difference because any machine that doesn't come with FAST
memory is an instant joke.  Even the "Walker" is comming with 4MB of
32-bit FAST memory, or so Amiga Technologies says.


: --
:                                 Michael van Elst

: Internet: [e-mail]
:                                 "A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."

                       Greg Baldwin ([e-mail])
     Amiga junkie and user since 1987    Computer Science & DTV Student
     Commodore64 fan since about 1983    http://www.eskimo.com/~drizzit
               Tyranical EFNet #Amiga Channel Operator "Drizzit"